Content feed Comments Feed
Showing posts with label Sins Past. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Sins Past. Show all posts

Infinite Spider-Man 9.11: Was Joe Quesada a hypocrite?

Posted by Mister Mets 14 March 2012


A common argument against using One More Day to “fix” Spider‑Man was that it was hypocritical for Joe Quesada to complain about how the twenty‑first Century Spider‑Man was so different from the core of the character, when the franchise has changed under his watch. Stuff that happened in the series prior to One More Day included Straczynci’s revisions to the origin, Peter quitting the Daily Bugle to become a teacher, Aunt May learning that her nephew is Spider‑Man, Sins Past, Spider‑Man joining the Avengers, Eddie Brock giving up the Venom symbiote, Peter’s family moving into the Avengers tower, organic webbing, the new powers which resulted from “The Other” rebirth, the “Iron Spider” Armor, Peter’s partnership with Tony Stark, his decision to reveal his identity to the world, and his status as a wanted fugitive. However, an analysis of these developments reveals that for the most part, Spider‑Man hadn’t radically and irreversibly changed under Quesada.

Any overview of the Spider‑Man books while Quesada’s been EIC should also consider the state of affairs of the Spider‑Man becomes pre‑Quesada, where there were events such as Mary Jane’s death, her success as a supermodel, the period where Peter was Spider‑Man without telling Mary Jane, Spider‑Man: Chapter One (which was meant to replace some of the most significant Spider-Man comics ever) and the other aspects of the unsuccessful 1999 relaunch. As Quesada inherited Mackie’s Spider‑Man, the stories written while he was Editor in Chief represent a marked improvement, if only in terms of basic craft. This is one reason it was difficult to blame Quesada for the problems plaguing the books. In addition, the most significant change he has wanted to reverse is the marriage and he couldn’t be blamed for anything to do with that, unless he gave an edict to the writers that they can not write the marriage in an interesting way. Rich Johnson would have a field day with that one, and I suspect JMS would have happily leaked it.

But let's look at stuff that happened in the Spider-Man comics from 2001-2007.

Aunt May Knowing Spider‑Man’s Identity

While Aunt May knowing Spider‑Man’s identity did restrict some stories, you could always do the stories that required her not to know about Peter’s hobby (IE‑ the old woman who loves Peter and fears Spider‑Man, the old woman getting worried about Peter when he disappears at the same time a supervillain is sighted, etcetera) with another character, although it will lose some of the tension. Aunt May knowing allows for new stories, and as far as I'm concerned, doesn’t resolve the confidentiality problems, as there’s stuff that Peter will not be able or willing to tell the elderly woman who raised him.

As a result, I wouldn’t mind her learning his identity again, as that was a good step for the characters, Peter knows that she can handle the shock and there’s still good drama in Peter trying to keep the extent of the dangers associated with his hobby secret from her. I wouldn’t see Peter being able to confide in her about the secret Skrull invasion. However, when Aunt May doesn't know, there's a greater opportunity for dramatic irony.

The New Physics Teacher

Peter quitting the Daily Bugle to teach high school struck me as an “illusion of change” development. It didn’t make Peter’s life easier, and gave him all sorts of new problems, such as the possibility he would be fired or just disappoint students if he’s late to school because of a fight with a new supervillain. While the faculty of Midtown High could have become a more vital part of the supporting cast, the staff of the Bugle was still around, should any writers have chosen to do something with them. While it had the disadvantage of limiting Spider-Man’s exposure to superhero incidents (unless an ungodly amount of his students were tied to this sort of stuff) at any point, Peter could have returned to the Daily Bugle or left his job as a teacher, which is pretty much what ended up happening.


The Spider‑Totem

The mystical connection to the origin (the spider‑totem stuff) hadn’t altered the character of Spider‑Man. Instead, it permitted new types of stories, should any future writers choose to follow up on this. Otherwise they’re free to ignore and never reference the developments, as these did not create a transformation in the relationship between Spider‑Man and any pre‑existing villains or supporting cast members. No one had explored the ramifications of the radiation which gave Spider‑Man his powers as well as Straczynski, aside from the time the blood transfusion gave May radiation poisoning.


Sins Past

Sins Past, while despised by many hasn’t created a significant change to Spider‑Man or any of the major characters. Gwen Stacy's been dead for more than a generation, so she wasn’t going to be a source of many major new stories and any attempt to resurrect her would be a tremendous mistake. There were complaints about Mary Jane’s actions in keeping Gwen and Norman’s one night stand (and the aftermath) a secret, although in this case, there really was no appropriate time or place for her to reveal this stuff to Peter. Norman Osborn has done many worse things than a teenager, so this hasn’t hurt his character.

“Sins Past” did change elements of “The Night Gwen Stacy Died” including Osborn’s reasons for targeting Gwen, but that story still exists unaltered in comic book readers’ libraries. It was probably a bad move for Marvel and is one reason Amazing Spider‑Man sales slipped after Romita Jr left although JMS got the readers back with “The Other” and the Civil War tie‑ins), but the impact was limited. The fallout has been restricted to one six issue story, a four issue follow‑up, and scattered lines in a handful of comics, even if Gabriel Stacy returned in the American Son mini-series.

The First New Venom

I thought Mac Gargan gaining the powers of the Venom symbiote was one of the smartest developments in the Spider-Man comics in the last decade. It cemented Venom as one of the top three Spider‑Man villains since Eddie Brock’s motivations for what he does were always rather inadequate and the character just seems more monumental when a Lee/ Ditko creation is the host. It must have been a bit of a disappointment in Amazing Spider‑Man #300 when Venom unmasked, and turned out to be some guy the readers had never met before (this is probably why every other version of the story featured Eddie Brock before he became Venom.

If Mac becoming Venom was a permanent change, it fulfills my requirements for appropriate progress: it makes Peter’s life more difficult, doesn’t counter what the characters would do and encourages new types of stories. There would be a trained supervillain in the Venom suit (and he hated Spider‑Man just as much Brock did, while he’s a little bit more dangerous due to the additional experience), someone else could have the Scorpion suit and Eddie Brock would still on the loose. Leaving Eddie Brock alive at the end of Millar’s Spider‑Man run was a purely editorial decision, but an intelligent one, as it allowed future writers to have Eddie Brock regain the symbiote (essentially making Mac gaining the symbiote an example of the “Illusion of Change.”) or do something different with the character. Now that the readers are familiar with him, if some imposing new villain unmasks and reveals himself as Eddie Brock, it’s going to be a cool moment. Or he could just stay Anti-Venom.

The New Avengers

Many comic book fans expect changes to the status quo to last forever, or until the books end (which they seem to want to happen at the time their interest in the title starts waning.) Every now and then, I see polls asking how long Spider‑Man and Wolverine will remain on the Avengers, often with the implication that once they leave, Bendis’s decision to introduce them to the series (and his entire run on the title) will be a failure. Reading the first Essential Avengers volume is a reminder that the only constant for the Avengers is change. The Avengers team at the end of the first issue couldn’t even last until the end of the second. All of the founding Avengers left in the sixteenth issue, replaced by three B‑grade (and that's being charitable) former villains.

Of course Spider‑Man and Wolverine will eventually leave the Avengers! It was never meant to be a permanent development, as there never has been a permanent member of the Avengers. The reason Bendis’s New Avengers is so influential (and will remain that way after Spider‑Man and Wolverine leave) was because of the way it permits future writers to put anyone they want onto the Avengers, restoring the series to what it was meant to be: a team book with a diverse array of Marvel heroes.

At the same time, Spider‑Man developed new connections with his fellow Avengers. He has an easygoing camaraderie with Luke Cage, which allows for fun team‑ups. Putting him on the same team as Wolverine strengthens the relationship between Marvel’s two most popular characters. The protege and mentor bond with Tony provided a unique connection between two of the most popular Marvel heroes. While it ended badly (which meant that it made things more difficult for Peter), it was never boring. Thanks to Civil War, while Spider‑Man’s familiarity with some heroes has increased (which leads to less tense encounters with his fellow New Avengers) he has a more adversarial relationship with others to say nothing of darker vigilantes and younger heroes, who may never have trusted him to begin with.

Life was briefly easier for Peter, when Spider‑Man was on the New Avengers, while his family lived in the Avengers Mansion. Marvel featured stories that wouldn’t otherwise be available, along with unique complications (Wolverine hitting on Mary Jane, a scuzzy tabloid reporting that Mary Jane was cheating on Peter with Tony, etc.) Because things briefly turned out so well, it became all the more dramatic when it ended badly. It’s now going to take a long time before May and Mary Jane can comfortably interact with the Avengers. That brief period of joy ain’t coming back any time soon.

When the Mask Came Off

The unmasking allowed for an year of new stories which could otherwise not be done, although it did coincide with declining sales for both Friendly Neighborhood Spider‑Man and Sensational Spider‑Man. The only reason “Spider‑Man Unmasked” happened was that the people at Marvel were planning a giant retcon anyway and understood that this provided an opportunity to see what type of material they could do if the world knew that Peter was Spider‑Man. Some of it was really good, especially Peter David’s Vulture storyline and Matt Fraction’s Sensational Spider‑Man Annual.

There was some objection to ending the “Unmasked” status quo while there were stories left to tell, though it’s preferable to end it too early than to end it too late, especially given the declines in sales, and the way it was obvious the unmasking wasn’t going to last forever, which may be the reason readers have left the side titles.

Organic Webbing

One fairly controversial change last decade involved giving the comic book Spider‑Man organic webbing, like his movie counterpart. With this, there weren’t many arguments that good writers could make it work. It doesn’t really allow for many new stories, and actually just makes things a bit easier for Spider‑Man.

Good drama is about making things as difficult as possible for the protagonist, and organic webbing denies that, by removing a source of conflict and pressure. The only story the comic books haven't really told that requires organic webbing would be Spider‑Man's reaction if his webbing starts malfunctioning (although that was pretty much covered in the first two movies.) Well, you could also do a story where Electro zaps Spider‑Man’s webbing, and he’s internally barbecued. But that’s pretty much it.

While the Brand New Day guys went a bit overboard in the first few months, it was preferable to the alternative. While Bendis never gave Ultimate Peter Parker malfunctioning webshooters, this shouldn’t be used as a reason to limit Dan Slott.

The flipside of the duplicity question is whether Quesada and Marvel have been hypocritical in their reasoning behind One More Day to allow certain recent developments in Amazing Spider-Man.

<<PREVIOUS NEXT >>

Infinite Spider-Man Part 4.3: JMS's One More Day

Posted by Mister Mets 04 August 2011


In a poll at the Spider-Man forum at Comic Book Resources, a majority preferred J. Michael Straczynski's plans for One More Day over the story that was published. I hope that most of them did it as a protest vote, because JMS's plans were significantly infeasible, in a way that the final product was not.

At some point, I'd love to see JMS's original scripts for One More Day Parts 3 & 4. It'd be a cool feature in some kind of trade paperback. But even without that material, we know a lot about what JMS wanted to do, and it includes much of the stuff that readers have said they hated about One More Day.

For example, the inability of anyone to heal Aunt May would have been part of JMS's version. But that was a minor quibble. JMS would still have used Mephisto as a villain. So the merits of erasing vows of holy matrimony by inking a deal with a demon are irrelevant in an analysis of two versions of a story featuring the erasing vows of holy matrimony by inking a deal with a demon.

Some have assumed that JMS wanted to use Loki in One More Day, but that isn't the case. While Loki was dead during One More Day, since JMS was writing the Thor relaunch, he was the one writer who could have insisted on using Loki in the storyline without anyone complaining. While Loki had actually appeared in earlier issues of Amazing Spider-Man
credited to JMS, that material was written by Fiona Avery and not JMS. The interview in which she talked about it seems to be lost to the ether, but Fiona Avery came up with her own plots for that storyline. It was her decision to use Loki, and it was not part of JMS's master plan.

When I was halfway through issue three of OMD, we received Joe's script for issue 4. After reading it, we (Axel, Tom and myself) all quickly realized that we had a problem -- the script we had just received was not the one we were expecting, and the events that were being set forth in that issue were going to conflict with the work that was already being done on "Brand New Day." I thought that perhaps Joe had forgotten some of the stuff discussed at the summit meetings and the subsequent e-mails and discussions that followed, but that didn't seem to be the case; this was the story he wanted to tell. In his story, Mephisto was going to change continuity from as far back as issues #96-98 from 1971. In Joe's story, Peter drops the dime on Harry, and that helps get him into rehab right away. Consequently, MJ stays with Harry, and Gwen never dies and never has her affair with Norman, etc., etc. And in the end, Peter and MJ are never married.

This, in my mind, while it neatly puts the pieces back in some way, was not what we wanted to do. First, it discounted every issue of "Amazing" since that story arc. Second, the series of events that it discounts in the Marvel U are too far-reaching to contemplate. And third, it had severe ramifications for the creators already well underway on "Brand New Day," the thrice-monthly "Amazing Spider-Man." In other words, there was just no way to tell Joe's story without blowing up the entire Marvel U and every Spider-Man's fan's collection. What we originally discussed with Joe and the group was much simpler and cleaner: The wedding? Something happened on the wedding day that prevented it from happening. The unsmasking? Mephisto makes people forget it; much like the Sentry, it happened -- it's just no longer remembered.


What Could Have Been: According to Quesada, JMS wrote the point where the new timeline diverged from the old one as be Harry getting into rehab back in the early 70s, thereby affecting relationships and meaning Gwen Stacy never died. Marvel's writers collectively nixed it beforehand because such changes would affect the entire Marvel universe and invalidate nearly forty years of canon, and with two issues done they had to scramble to change the remaining two at the last minute. (If true, this could explain why JMS wanted his name off those issues; but all things considered, take this with a grain of salt unless we hear JMS's side of the story.)




I'm sorry, but it would have been WAY more jarring.

In the current version, every story for the past 20 years pretty much happened the same way, except for substituting the marriage for a deeply committed relationship. That's it. Gwen's death? Civil War? The unmasking? Everything happened.

In the change that JMS proposed, which would have used magic as well (magical time-travel), Peter would have gotten Harry help for his drug problem. Norman wouldn't have lapsed back into being the Goblin. Gwen wouldn't have died. And Gwen would have STAYED Pete's girlfriend (try telling the MJ fans THAT-- And keep in mind the teeth-gnashing heard around the web when Pete woke up next to Gwen in HOUSE OF M-- an alternate reality that everyone KNEW was going away), and ALL TIME would have been rewritten for 30 years of continuity.

There WOULDN'T have been the "everything basically happened the same way" rule where all the basic events of your comics STILL happening. There would have been a full-blown reboot. And that would've affected EVERY book that Spidey was tied into-- and, therefore, the rest of the Marvel U.

Would it have been Peter and Gwen living in Avengers Tower in NEW AVENGERS?

If Norman hadn't "died" on the night Gwen died, would Harry have ever become a Green Goblin?

If Gwen never died, and Harry was cured of his addiction, would HARRY still be dating MJ?

What would have happened to Liz? To baby Normie? Would Foggy Nelson still have dated Liz, the single mother with a kid (baby Normie) over in DAREDEVIL?

I could do this all night.

Let me put it to you this way-- I'm not asking WHICH version of OMD you would have enjoyed more-- I'm asking out of 2 choices, which RESULT would you rather have:

1. 20 years of continuity where "all the events happened the same way, except Peter and MJ were in a committed relationship instead of a marriage."

or

2. 30 years of continuity being completely re-written with a NEW continuity in place that is DIFFERENT from the 30 years of comics fans had read, starting with Gwen NEVER dying and still being alive all that time, Norman never "dying" and going off the map all those years-- creating a vacuum filled by other characters-- like Harry as a Green Goblin AND Hobgoblin, and so on. Continuity DRASTICALLY changed in ALL the Spidey comics AND all the comics Spidey has tied into SINCE The Night Gwen Stacy (didn't) Die.
Some readers assume that JMS's version would have included a detailed explanation about how all these changes came to be. Had this been the case, it would have to be quite detailed to answer basic questions about some of the most important characters.

If Gwen Stacy never died, would Miles Warren still have become the Jackal? How would that have affected Spider-Man's first encounter with the Punisher?

If Norman Osborn was never believed dead, how would that have affected the Hobgoblin saga? Should Ned Leeds still be alive? In that case, would Betty Brant still be his wife?

With Quesada's version, most elements of the married Spider-Man era stories were preserved. Most of the stories still happened with minor differences: Mary Jane was Peter's girlfriend rather than his wife, and more people had 21st Century technology in comics released in the late 80s and 90s. The changes weren't as far-reaching as what JMS would have done.

Slott also emphasized why it would have been so difficult to implement JMS's story. It contradicted many stories that had already been commissioned months earlier.
We were working on BND pretty far back in 2007. Remember SPIDER-MAN: SWING SHIFT? That issue, which had teases to BND characters and set-ups, came out the first week of May in '07-- and the last issue of OMD didn't come out till December '07.

We were told all of the story beats of OMD, but we didn't see the specific script for the last issue till we were well into our own run. This is the nature of publishing a 3 times a month book-- and making sure it sticks to a schedule.

For example: Before readers ever saw my 1st story arc with Steve McNiven, Marcos was drawing my 2nd arc, and I was turning in plots for my 3rd arc (NEW WAYS TO DIE). When fans ACTUALLY got to see the issues and voice concerns about Harry's return-- my very NEXT arc addressed it (the Molten Man two-parter).

For most artists, it takes a good month to produce a penciled issue of a comic. That's not factoring in the time it takes to write it before hand, the time the inker and colorist are working on a staggered schedule on the other side of that, and you also have to add all the various editorial issues AND the hard work the letterer and the production department have to do. It's a massive group effort!

Schedule-wise, when you triple THAT for a 3 issue arc (or sextuple it for a 6 issue arc!), the editor CANNOT view THAT as three books coming out in one month, he HAS to treat it as one book that has to be ready 3 months ahead of time, a second book that has to be ready 2 months ahead of time, and a third that has be ready 1 month ahead of time. (Now think about THAT for the 6 parter!!!) AND doing that EVERY MONTH. This kind of scheduling would KILL an ordinary editor-- but Steve Wacker pulls it off!

The plus side: When it all comes together, you get 3 issues a month! (And going by the fan mail, readers frickin' LOVE that-- and want to know why OTHER Marvel comics won't do this.)
The minus side: Once that "train" is on the tracks, it is HARD to make sharp turns. (That's why we created side-projects like AMAZING SPIDER-MAN: EXTRA, so we could address fan concerns-- and OUR concerns-- on a more flexible month-to-month basis.

For example, we got a GREAT reaction on Anti-Venom in NEW WAYS TO DIE. We got lots of requests from fans who wanted to see him again-- right away-- but we were so far into our ASM schedule, we knew he wasn't going to show up for a while. So I wrote an Anti-Venom done-in-one in ASM: EXTRA #2.
If Joe Quesada had fallen in love with JMS's version, and insisted on that version of the story, it would have been a clusterfuck.

I'm sure JMS thought that his solution provided more flexibility for the later writers, by turning backstory into a blank slate. But that type of reboot is much harder to pull off in a shared universe. It would also have invalidated the sense that the stories in the past matter, and make it much more difficult to reference elements of the character's backstory, when it's all vague and undefined.

It would have been ridiculously time-consuming work for the writers to come up with Spider-Man's new backstory and make it fit with the rest of the Marvel Universe. And then they'd have to spend a lot of time and precious pages filling in the readers on what elements of the backstory are different. All while coming up with Spider-Man's new adventures in the current comics.

You could argue that even JMS's plans for One More Day don't reflect the story he wanted to tell, when free of all constraints. Perhaps he would have told a different story, if the marriage hadn't been coming to an end.

In his earlier work, when he showed events that occurred a generation or so in the future, there would be a major sequence towards the end of the story following up on that. Babylon 5 and Midnight Nationare examples. So it's telling that he had a few scenes with a future Spider-Man in Amazing Spider-Man #500, and chose not to touch on that future during Back in Black and One More Day.

A crucial difference between those projects and Spider-Man is that Amazing Spider-Man isn't a creator-owned project. While I wouldn't mind reading a Silver Surfer: Requiem type mini-series featuring JMS's dark future for Spider-Man, he was aware that even an extraordinary writer is probably not going to get the opportunity to tell Spider-Man's final story. He could always have told Quesada that he'd rather leave it up to another writer to set things up for Brand New Day.

But he chose to write One More Day. He even ultimately chose to keep his name on the last two issues. The story was much promoted, and during that time, there were two developments that some readers expressed an interest in. Both involving May Parkers.


One More Day was the second time Marvel came close to resurrecting Gwen Stacy. As Rich Johnston noted, back when he was writing about comics gossip in his All the Rage bulletin, John Byrne and Howard Mackie had a similar idea.



Earlier this week, John Byrne revealed the Spider-Man creative team's proposed revamping of Spider-Man's world in a Bobby Ewing style. First, the creative team would have put Peter Parker through the worst of it, until he considers ending it all. At that point, he'd find himself on the bridge where Gwen Stacy died, offering his soul if the clock could have been turned back to simpler times. At which point the Shaper Of Worlds does just that, remaking Spider-Man's world to when he was back in High School, but with the current book's supporting cast, taking place in the modern day. Eventually confronting the Shaper, he discovers nothing can be changed, and his memories of the old world slowly fade away. The team decided though that this kind of event would be too "cosmic" for Spider-Man, who has a "street level" tone.

On his message board, John Byrne confirmed that this was considered. It's been noted that this pitch had similarities to what eventually happened in One More Day, a similarly "cosmic" storyline. It had many flaws, and the higher‑ups at Marvel were right to reject it. First, it was odd to have an obscure character like the Shaper of Worlds have such a massive role in a major event in the Spider‑Man franchise. And this would be an oft‑reprinted book, so it could easily be the only exposure many fans have to the Shaper. I’m not even sure if any other book with the Shaper of Worlds has been reprinted.

It also takes away from the drama if there are no consequences to this magic reset button. Peter's fading memory makes the previous decades’ comic books completely irrelevant. Spider‑Man asking to return to simpler and better times echoes the opinions of the guys who came up with the idea. Byrne has expressed his belief the Spider‑Man franchise was irreparably harmed by both Peter graduating high school and the Marvel Team‑Up spinoff series, opinions he shares with Steve Ditko and Roy Thomas, making it a huge middle finger to the people who have read and enjoyed the book since then.

Peter Parker is one character who doesn’t look back at his high school days with any sense of nostalgia, so it also shows a misunderstanding of the time period, as . Hell, Peter didn't even meet Gwen until he went to college.

Changing Peter's age so obviously would also have a tremendous and probably negative impact on Marvel continuity, more so than undoing the marriage. It begs all sorts of weirder questions about the relationship between the Spider‑Man books and the rest of the Marvel Universe. How long have characters like Sandman and the Kingpin, who have had notable encounters with other Marvel superheroes, been villains? How long have the Punisher or Cloak and Dagger been active? What’s the new relationship between Spider‑Man and Daredevil or the Human Torch? The plan showed a complete ignorance of some of the things that made Marvel work, namely the shared universe.

Resurrecting Gwendy

Prior to OMD, there were some rumors that Gwen Stacy’s death would magically be undone, notably due to her role in the third Spider‑Man movie, some J Scott Campbell sketches of the character, her raised profile after the controversy over Sins Past and the correct belief that Peter and Mary Jane’s marriage will be retconned away. Joe Quesada later revealed that he had been pushing for the move. With this single change to Spider‑Man’s history, Peter might never have married Mary Jane, even if he and Gwen were to later break up. And Gwen Stacy would remain the woman who could best compete with Mary Jane for Peter Parker’s affection.

Some have asked what the difference would have been between the resurrection of the Osborns and the possible return of Gwen Stacy. The Osborns were supervillains, so resurrections are more acceptable than in the case of a character who has always been an ordinary teenage girl. With the Osborns, all of the stuff we saw in the original issues still happened. There was just other stuff we weren't privy to.

While magically retconning Spider‑Man's marriage somewhat altered several of the best regarded and significant Spider‑Man stories ever (notably Kraven's Last Hunt and the Todd Mcfarlane Venom issues) somehow preventing Gwen Stacy's death would have had more of an impact on a larger grouping of stories including Roger Stern's Hobgoblin Saga, the Harry Osborn Green Goblin Saga and the Punisher's first appearance.



Even if undoing Gwen's death was the only way to undo Sins Past (and it wouldn't even succeed in that), it would be wrong for Marvel to undo a great story with positive consequences which have affected the vast majority of the Spider‑Man comics of the last three and a half decades in order to undo a six part story and its mediocre four part sequel.

It's also wrong for the magical retcon to undo an actual death at Peter’s request, as this makes him look like a dick for not asking the Shaper of Worlds to undo other events objectively worse than the deaths of loved ones like Gwen (IE‑ any event where more than one person died) and it would beg the question of why he wouldn’t choose to undo the death of Uncle Ben (which would probably have led to Peter going to another college than ESU and never meeting Gwen or Harry Osborn), the deaths of his parents, or Dark Phoenix destroying an entire planet.

Proponents of bringing Gwen back have compared it to Ed Brubaker successfully resurrecting Bucky in Captain America. Personally, I think "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" is on a higher level than Avengers #4, in terms of its critical reputation. Bucky's death was also covered rather quickly, in a three page flashback before Captain America gets used to the modern era and helps the Avengers fight an alien. And there was never a body.


There would be slight advantages to Gwen’s return, and it would certainly muddy the waters about whether or not Peter will get back together with MJ. But it wouldn’t be worth it.

Resurrecting Gwen wouldn't bring about a long term boost in sales, and the regular public knows MJ much better than Gwen. At the same time, Gwen’s death was ultimately a positive thing for the Spider‑Man books. It was a great story, which had a significant and meaningful change to the status quo, and ultimately led to more stories than we would have gotten had Peter and Gwen Stacy just broken up.

The same wouldn’t be true of killing Aunt May or Mary Jane. Gwen’s death was so significant because it happened first. It proved that in the Marvel Universe, anything can happen. Bringing her back would be too much of a sign that nothing is permanent.

The question of whether Gwen's death should be erased was the most prominent difference between JMS's plans for One More Day, and what Marvel published.




"The Night Gwen Stacy Died" is probably the best regarded Spider-Man story ever. It's a defining point in comic book history, with some suggesting that it marked the end of the Silver Age or the beginning of the subsequent bronze age.

An article in Fantaco's 1982 Spider-Man Chronicles suggested that she was the virgin sacrifice that allowed Gerry Conway to kill off Norman Osborn. And that's sort of how she came to be viewed: the ultimate innocent. In Marvels, protagonist Phil Sheldon, a reporter for the Daily Bugle, made this explicit, as he said of the superheroes: "They weren't here to win the approval of the petty and small-minded. They were here to save the innocent. To save people like Gwen."

In "Sins Past" writer J. Michael Straczysnki retconned how Gwen had come to be seen, revealing that she was murdered because she had an affair and two children with Spider-Man's greatest enemy: the Green Goblin's alter-ego, middle-aged industrialist Norman Osborn. It was also revealed that Mary Jane had always known about this. The twins: Gabriel and Sarah Stacy, experienced a sort of accelerated aging, so they had the appearance and minds of young adults, even if chronologically, they had to be a few years younger than the likes of Billy Conners.

The story was so controversial that many expected One More Day to somehow retcon it away. It's often ranked as one of the worst Spider-Man stories ever. One guy has an extensive blog post "Redeeming Gwendy" about why he thinks it's so awful.

I don't particularly mind the revelations about Gwen, MJ or Norman. It might even have been a slight improvement from the generic girlfriend Gwen had become. As a (former) supporting character, she's allowed to mess up and/ or have bad things happen to her in ways that it can't with Peter Parker. It's the same reason Flash can lose his legs, or be an alcoholic, Harry can overdose on LSD, and even MJ can take up smoking. The suggestion in Sins Past that Peter and Gwen didn't actually have sex is an example. It bothered some readers, but I can actually buy that part of the story, as I would imagine that giving birth to twins would reduce a young woman's interest in sleeping with another guy.

I'd give the arc a "B." Mike Deodato's art is fantastic, the villains are intriguing and JMS handles the quiet moments and the emotion rather well. It ends abruptly, but the second issue in particular was exceptional.

There's still a serious flaw in the careless handling of flashbacks, especially considering how significant the revelations were. The best explanation for Gwen's behavior came from fan J.R. Fetinger AKA Madgoblin, rather than from the writer. To sum it up, there was a brief period in which Gwen Stacy thought Peter had tried to assault her elderly father. At around the same time, Norman Osborn risked his life to save hers from the Kingpin.

There were some questions about whether it was realistic for a young woman like Gwen to have a one night stand with a powerful middle-aged millionaire. It happens sometimes. It's not an impossibility.

If Peter were the father of Gwen Stacy’s children…

JMS said that his original plan was to reveal that the mystery twins were actually the children of Peter Parker, before that was vetoed by editorial. As a result, there have been questions about who was to blame for it, a discussion that's odd to participate in, as I did ultimately like the story.

Joe Quesada is to "blame" for Sins Past if he allowed JMS to make Gabriel and Sarah Stacy Peter's children when the story was in its infancy, and then reversed the decision at the last moment, when it was too late to simply go forward with a different story. If JMS had plenty of lead time and still decided to go ahead with the story of Gwen's children, he's to blame. If JMS neglected to tell Joe Quesada until the last minute that he would be introducing Peter Parker's adult children in a storyline, then he's still to blame.







































During the Sins Past debacle, there were some readers who expressed their preference for Straczynski’s original plan for the storyline: that Peter Parker would be the father of Gwen Stacy’s children. They asked what the worst thing that could happen would be, and I imagined a few. On a slow news day, CNN runs the "Spider‑Man's a deadbeat dad" story. Peter Parker seems older, when he becomes the father of two kids who look like adults. Writers run out of ideas involving Peter's miraculously aged children (as there are many ideas the editors at Marvel wouldn't want the writers to explore) who are soon ignored, which further confuses readers, who don’t like it when major developments are dropped.

Possible Retcons

Some have wanted a retcon revealing that Gwen was raped. That would have resulted in new problems, especially for a series such as Amazing Spider-Man, which has a younger audience (the material is PG-13 at worse.) Aside from the obvious trauma for the victim, rape, as a crime, raises difficult questions about gender equality and sexuality. And it gets more messed up when one of the most famous Spider-Man stories is suddenly about a woman murdered by her rapist, due to a decision she made about children conceived during the rape.

While Marvel was setting up One More Day, they were also laying the seeds for the Secret Invasion crossover, which revealed that the Skrulls, a race of shape-shfting aliens, had been covertly scheming on Earth. A tie-in to that probably would have been the best way to retcon Sins Past, as it could be revealed that the Stacy twins were a Skrull plot or something. The event had not been referenced in any of Spider-Man's encounters with Norman Osborn, so at the time, so it could have been revealed a some kind of hoax in a pre-Brand New Day deck-cleaning.

Sins Past and Brand New Day

Oddly enough, Marvel's ultimate plans for One More Day and Brand New Day might have gotten in the way of any Sins Past retcon, as they now had a reason for Norman Osborn to have killed Gwen Stacy that had nothing to do with him knowing Spider-Man's identity. That was important when Norman Osborn appeared in the book, still hating Spidey but for the first time in decades, unaware of who was behind the mask.

At this point, it may be too late to put the genie back in the bottle. Sins Past has been referenced in other stories, and Gwen's children have reappeared. At some point in the future, the Spider-Man movie franchise may be relaunched with Gwen Stacy as Norman Osborn's girlfriend.

There weren't many conceivable ways for OMD to retcon Sins Past. Undoing Sins Past in One More Day would also have required a detour from that story's goal of undoing the marriage and unmasking. The story that was ultimately published dealt largely with the marriage, and tried to square the circle by keeping the stories from ASM 293-545 intact as much as possible, while changing the marital status of two characters. Whether this was successful was much-debated elsewhere.

JMS had slightly different plans for One More Day, and he thought there was a way to retcon Sins Past as well.

JMS's Recommended Retcon

JMS wanted One More Day to change Spider-Man's past in a way that prevented Gwen and Norman from having sex. Going by message board posts, many readers would have been satisfied with this solution, although if your objection to Sins Past was that it ruined Gwen's character, JMS's proposed retcon wouldn't have addressed that at all. It wouldn't have changed what's at the core of many objections to Sins Past: what the storyline said about the characters.

Gwen Stacy would still be the type of girl who might get seduced and knocked up by a friend's dad, and then keep that information from a guy she loves. Mary Jane would still keep this secret from her husband. If Gwen and Norman had children, those kids would grow at an artificially fast rate. All this would remain canon. You'd need another type of retcon to "fix" Sins Past, as you'd need something that explains her motivations or reveals somehow that it didn't happen.

I recall the majority of complaints about Sins Past being about what it did to Gwen's character, rather than the situation Gwen was placed in, although I'm sure a handful were bothered by the latter. Plus, wiping out two living beings from existence is very morally dubious.

But it would have resurrected Gwen Stacy. And it wasn't the first time the creative team of Amazing Spider-Man seriously considered that option.

Sins Past addressed in Dark Avengers # 11?

Posted by bps 28 October 2009

Okay,
So I do not usually, and have not been following the Dark Avengers. However, there has been some recent hype about Dark Avengers # 10 with the return of Mephisto. I have not yet read it, but I believe fans are hoping to see One More Day addresses in the next issue - Dark Avengers # 11

Here is a quick summary for what happened in Dark Avengers # 10 by Combustible Pumpkins on the Spider-man reviews discussion board.

To sum it up, folks were disappearing in a small town so Norman sent the Sentry over where he mysteriously disappears. Norman arrives shortly afterward with Hammer and the rest of the DA only for them to disappear as well. Last scene Norman's in front of five or six villains who were mostly cosmically or mystically powered, one of them being Mesphito. A lot of us were hoping the OMD deal would turn out a big event to straighten out BND's continuity since it's in quite a mess now.

Anyhow, I checked out the preview for Dark Avengers # 11 and saw this image



Although there is no dialogue in this preview, much like the previews for the Clone Saga, we can obviously tell that they will be addressing Gwen Stacy and her pregnancy from Norman, which as we know, resulted in the goblin twins being born. ( Sins Past )

For those of you who do not know, Sins Past was series before One more Day. In this series, it was revealed that Norman Osborn had sex with Gwen, who gave birth to two kids later. Obviously before she died.

These kids had abnormal growth due to the Goblin blood in them. They grew up faster than normal, were raised secretly by Norman to believe that Peter/ Spider-man and killed their mother. It was a very interesting, but controversial title.

As we know, since BND, no one, including Norman remembers Spider-man's identity. As such, there is no good reason why he would have killed Gwen Stacy. (Goblin killed Gwen as a way to get to Peter aka Spider-man).

Now that he no longer remembers, he must be confused as to the reason he killed her. The image above shows a floating pregnant Gwen, and Norman Osborn aka the green goblin aka leader of the Dark Avengers, in a Spider-man costume! How cool is that?

I will be getting this comic, and if it is worth reviewing, there will be a review up soon.





Welcome!


Spider-Man Reviews
features as many updates on the latest developments in Spider-Man comics as we can, along with reviews, commentary, news and discussion. Occasionally we try to throw in some game reviews as well.

We're in no way related to Marvel, but do recommend you read their comics.

Drop a comment anywhere you like on the blog, or join the discussion board. Enjoy!

Amazing Spider-Man Movie trailer 2012

Follow by Email

Our Authors - past and present


Comic Reviews


Game News


Elsewhere on the Internet...

FEEDJIT Live Traffic Feed

Blog Archive

Navigation by WebRing.

Followers